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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 2, 2010 10:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Just a reminder that we still live in a country where all citizens are NOT represented equally. Quirks in the constitution and DC's status as a virtual colony of the Federal Government mean that the 600,000 US citizens living in DC do not have representation in either house of Congress. DC has more people than Wyoming, which has two senators and a House rep who actually votes!

Education is the key here. As you go to the polls today, remember that there are 600,000 Americans who don't have the same rights as you.

WASHINGTON, DC - TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Nov 2, 2010 10:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

I Agree!! The GOP, however, will never let that happen because DC is a Democratic stronghold!

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 2, 2010 10:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

They are free to move out of DC, and off the government dole, if they really want representation.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Nov 2, 2010 10:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

VOTE FOR THE CROOK OF YOUR CHOICE, BUT VOTE!!

that said, as far as for the Altered State of California,
"If it's Brown, flush it down - I've seen his crap before!"

Yes on Prop 19

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 2, 2010 12:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

"Off the government dole"!?

Hey asshole... I'm not on the "government dole," and nor are most people who live and work here. My job is in DC, and I do not work for the government. I live here because I want to live where I work. I want a community instead of a commute. Is it really too much to ask that I have representation in Congress?

Why don't you think before you open your mouth?

This post was modified by snow_and_rain on 2010-11-02 19:36:56

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 2, 2010 12:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Why don't you check your facts before opening your pie hole. DC gets more Federal money per capita than any other part of the country.

IDIOT!

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 2, 2010 12:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

That's because this is where the government is! Same reason Virginia and Maryland rank high on the same list. Should we take away their congressional representation too?

Amazing how supposedly enlightened people can trick themselves into arguing against equal representation for all. Keep going man. You're on a roll.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Nov 2, 2010 12:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

I think career-welfarefolk should not be allowed to vote because of a conflict of interest - to those working folk who pay taxes, and of course, no voting for illegals(duh)and convicted felons.

I expect LOTS of voter fraud today from power hungry corrupt incumbants and their minions of Poll Workers

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 2, 2010 6:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

oh, dear me! People on welfare should not be allowed to vote?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 3, 2010 9:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

how about Corporate welfare? Oh wait, citizens united. Now they can buy elections with their taxpayer paid subsides. Man, it never ceases to amaze me how people pick the wrong problems to focus on

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 3, 2010 10:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

STOP THIS SOCIALIST PATH WE ARE ON!!!!!!!


And please pay my uncle to grow corn for ethanol so he can afford to buy diesel to run the tractor to harvet the same....

Get your govt hands off my medicare!

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 3, 2010 10:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

did you see that tea party article in Rolling Stone? Dude counting all the freakin tax payer bought scooters all these geezers were driving to their antui Government rallys. Its the same everywhere - when they get it its good anybody else its bad. Ask Joe freaking tea party Miller up here

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 3, 2010 12:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

LOL. I find that to be a common attitude ... government is spending way too much money on vague "programs," i.e., on other people. On me, government is probably not spending enough. I'M ENTITLED!!!!

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 3, 2010 10:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

did you see that tea party article in Rolling Stone? Dude counting all the freakin tax payer bought scooters all these geezers were driving to their antui Government rallys. Its the same everywhere - when they get it its good anybody else its bad. Ask Joe freaking tea party Miller up here

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 2, 2010 1:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

The vast majority of the "federal dole" money that DC gets goes to pay people's salaries. In other words, they have jobs, and they earn their money -- just like everyone else. Why should someone who works for Los Alamos in New Mexico (the second highest per capita rcpnt) get to vote, but not his coworker in DC? There's no rational way of explaining it, except to fall back on the constitution. Which is fine, of course, but the constitution has been wrong a few times. Or is it that DC citizens only deserve 3/5 of a vote each?

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 2, 2010 4:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

"Government worker" now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one!

You've gone from denial to justification in just two posts. What don't you get about DC's special status? It has been that way for more than 200 years, you knew they didn't have voting rights, you still moved there of your own free will and now your bitching about it on a music board. Who's the ignorant one here?

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 2, 2010 10:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

You, obviously. It has nothing to do with me not understanding it. It's about a lot of people who live and work here wanting to change it. See the difference?

What's wrong with fighting for something when you see injustice? I guess your answer is to just run away. How cowardly. I'm glad others in the world are less complacent than you are.

This post was modified by snow_and_rain on 2010-11-03 05:30:04

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 3, 2010 6:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

You can live and work where ever you like but it has consequences. You’re trying to change something but are ignorant of the facts and reasons for its very existence. There is no injustice here even though you claim to “see” one. The federal government must operate freely and independently of any local jurisdiction. DC is the founders’ solution to the injustices they experienced during their time in Philadelphia. So the injustice you “see” affecting the 600K Districters is far less than the injustice you would impose on the more than 300 million Americans by creating a separate “state” for DC. However I am open to a proposal that would let them be counted with Maryland in Federal elections.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 3, 2010 8:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Once again, I understand perfectly well the reasons behind denying more than 600,000 the right to vote in the nation's capital. I'm saying that i think they are stupid reasons, perpertuated these days mainly by partisanship and, in some cases, racism.

The threat is no longer realistic. The fact is, we are the only democratic country in the world where the citizens of its capital city are denied the right to vote. Your fear is irrational and damaging to democracy.

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 4, 2010 3:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Yeah the founders were real stupid people. Enjoy your ignorance.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 4, 2010 8:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

"Enjoy your ignorance."

Perhaps you have some tips?

I would prefer to see things for how they are today than to rely on the judgment of people who lived more than two centuries ago. You cite the opinions of the founders as if doing so were an excuse to not think for yourself. Times change, no? Or do you still think that women and blacks should be denied the right to vote?

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 4, 2010 8:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Your constant attempts to tie this to the suffragette and civil rights movement is pathetic and ignorant. Having already established your bona fides in that regard there's really no need for you to continue on this line of argument.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 4, 2010 9:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Your total failure to understand/care about a fundamental civil rights issue like equal representation under the law is telling, but not particularly shocking. I have learned that it is virtually impossible to underestimate the American people.

Why not tie it to universal suffrage? How is it different? The framers did many things wrong. Denying women and black people the right to vote was wrong. Counting black people as 3/5 of a person was wrong. Denying 600,000 people the right to vote while demanding they pay federal taxes is fundamentally wrong. Thankfully, we have the power to change these things.

Your sole argument for maintaining DC's status as a colony to be taxed fully but denied the right to vote is that it's always been that way. You've even contradicted yourself by saying that DC should "revert" to Maryland. So it's okay by you if the District is under control of the Maryland government. Doesn't that present the exact same kind of "threat" to the federal government as DC statehood?

Secondly, do you have any response to the fact that we are the ONLY democratic country that denies citizens in the capital the right to vote? I would note that the British, French and Canadians have somehow managed to hold off the thundering revolutionary hordes based in their capital cities. Why are we different?

Sorry, but it's very hard not to see your position on this as racist. DC would be the only state with a majority black population. In a country that currently has no black senators, I suppose tthat would be too much for some people. Maybe that's not your reasoning, but in the absence of anything that makes sense, I'll assume that's the case.

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 4, 2010 9:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Typical loony lefty everyone you disagree with gets labeled a racist.

Move to a real State if the issue bothers you so much. Again you'll be off the government dole that DC residents enjoy and the associated perks of, in your twisted logic, being a slave living in the District.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 4, 2010 9:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

If the shoe fits..

Look, I asked you several specific questions that followed the logic of your argument that the government needs a non-voting buffer zone around it to survive. Since you responded to none of them, I have to fall back on the simplest explanation. In this case, racism. Until you make a sensible argument, that's really all I've got to work with.

This post was modified by snow_and_rain on 2010-11-04 16:45:29

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 4, 2010 9:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Asked and answered. The founders logic and solution are sound for our republic. They are still sound today.

Again you diminish the true injustice of slavery in your ill considered use of it in your argument. Work with that.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 4, 2010 10:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Show me where I compared anything to slavery. I've been very clear that I think denying tax-paying citizens the right to vote is a no-brainer civil right issue. On that we disagree, obviously. You think that some things are more important than allowing people equal represntation under the law. I don't.

But nowhere did I compare anything to slavery. Why must you make things up? Can't we just have a normal discussion here?

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 4, 2010 11:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

You really are in denial. Please seek help.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 4, 2010 1:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Another strong response. Very convincing. You're really starting to win me over with your idealism and your penetrating logic.

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 4, 2010 4:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Sorry but I'm not in the business winning over those in denial. Answer me this. How many times did you refer to "3/5" in this thread? That is a direct reference to slavery! Having come from an enslaved people I don't take casual references and comparisons to it very kindly. Get your head out of your ass and stop deluding yourself about the depths of your ignorance.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 2, 2010 1:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Actually, I would only chime in as a guilty party myself to say that the vast majority of state and federal employees work very little. Benefits and the rest are unreal. I am very happy, BUT I am objective.

This has no relevance to your pt; just an observation of the degree to which fed/state employees truly work...I know there are exceptions, like everyone's mother, but the number of workers at these two levels is simply astounding, and the next time you are in a DMV line, just say "Tell was right; they're dumber than dirt too".

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 2, 2010 2:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

THEN NO VOTE FOR YOU EITHER!!!!

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Nov 2, 2010 10:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Really, you think it's right that they pay taxes yet have no say in their government because of where they live? Isn't that why we fought a revolution over 200 years ago?

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 2, 2010 11:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Yes DC was intentionally setup in the Constitution as a Federal entity under the legislation of Congress and not as a state within the union. It was setup as such because of earlier experiences when the capital was located in Philadelphia and local authorities refused to protect the government. It is Constitutional, see Article One Section 8, and as American as apple pie.

By the way the 23rd Amendment gave the District representation in the Electoral College.

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Nov 2, 2010 12:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Absolutely, the 8th Amendment was passed over 200 years ago, a different time, and as we know, the constitution can be wrong (i.e. slavery, prohibition, suffrage etc) and may be amended. It is also very American to admit when the Constitution is wrong and to take action to correct those mistakes.
Even though, since 1961, DC has electoral college votes, they are still excluded from voting for the other half of the elected government. That would be the half that has the constitutional authority to declare war, make decisions on taxes and funding, and the half that gets to decide which areas and districts get the benefits of taxes that they have collected (some of which comes from the people of DC).
I don't think that the folks of DC should be happy just because they have partial voting rights.

This post was modified by Purple Gel on 2010-11-02 19:25:53

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Nov 2, 2010 12:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

There is nothing wrong about the Constitution. It is the law of the land. Peoples perception of right and wrong change over time but that does not make what went on in the past wrong. Had you lived in that time your perceptions would be very different.

The District will never become a state. One course they could take is to retrocede to Maryland which would require the approval of Congress and the Maryland legislature. they will never do that because it would mean the end off all that Federal money they recieve for living in the District.

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Nov 2, 2010 12:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

You're right, of course, using the word "wrong" was a poor choice. As you suggest, what seemed to make sense 200 years ago, does not necessarily make sense today. The Constitution is a living document and as such can evolve over the years as circumstances change. While it is very difficult to amend the Constitution it can be done and has been done many times over the years. The Founders made sure of that by allowing for amendments in article five.

If anyone's interested in what it takes to amend the constituion, follow this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Five_of_the_United_States_Constitution

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 2, 2010 12:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Right, self-rule is so overrated. How nice it is living under the boot of the Federal government while having virtually no say in the way it does its work. It's a real picnic.

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Nov 2, 2010 2:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Yeah, like Eric Grannon, whose is running for my Maryland county's state's attorney, but lives in DC to get the homestead tax credit.

DC is not the place it used to be from the riots in 1968 through Marion Barry. It's much more live-able than most cities of its size (its population is closer to 750,000 than the aforementioned 600,000). Property values have gone way up as more and more suburbanites have moved in and rehabilitated areas that were slummy just a decade ago. Also, DC has eliminated new housing subsidies so the riff-raff is moving east and north to the Maryland suburbs and Baltimore City.

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Poster: Edsel Date: Nov 2, 2010 10:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Of course it's right, people live there by CHOICE, isn't that a Dem buzzword ?

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Nov 2, 2010 11:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DC WANTS TO VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Many people lived in the colonies by choice as well. We didn't think it was right then, why think that now??

I believe that citizens should be able to CHOOSE where they live in this country without having to choose whether they will be able to exercise their rights as Americans to fully participate in our system. Hell, even citizens who live overseas are allowed to vote in national elections.

I don't know if you have ever tried to relocate your family, but it is an expensive proposition.

So, I wonder if you are advocating that it's ok that citizens who don't have the financial means to make a move are not allowed to fully participate in our selection process.

Many people have been born and raised in DC, it's the only place they know.

So maybe you are saying that it's ok to tell certain citizens that they need to make a choice between their family/community and exercising their rights as citizens to fully participate in our democracy.

Or, maybe you think that it's right that taxpaying, citizens of this country who live in certain communities don't have the right to cast national votes on how that money is spent or on issues that may directly affect their community. (How'd that work out for you 18th century England?)

I don't know your politics, but is it because they may not agree with you and may cast votes you don't like so you want them to move to another area to break up their group so that their voting power will be diluted?

Boy, none of that sounds very "American" to me!!

This post was modified by Purple Gel on 2010-11-02 18:49:02